Bisendra Melaram: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome dear listeners to another exciting installment of Keys to the Castle. I'm your host, Bisendra Melaram, and today we're diving deep into a topic that's often shrouded in mystery. but plays a vital role in every real estate transaction. Title insurance. Joining us for this enlightening discussion is a true expert in the field.

Sue Barron from LB title with her wealth of knowledge and experience. Sue is here to guide us through the intricacies of title insurance, unraveling its complexities and shedding light on why it's an indispensable component to any real estate deal. But before we embark on this journey, let's introduce our esteemed co hosts alongside me today are two industry veterans.

Who's insights never failed to impress real estate attorney, Jason Kleiger. Oh 

Speaker 2: yeah. 

Bisendra Melaram: And mortgage professional, Jason Marcus. Together we form a powerhouse trio ready to unlock the secrets of title insurance. So whether you're a seasoned real estate pro or a first time home buyer, buckle up and get ready to get invaluable insights into the world of title insurance.

Let's kickstart this episode of keys to the castle and unravel the mysteries [00:01:00] behind Securing your piece of the real estate kingdom. Sue. Welcome. 

Sue Baran: Thank you. 

Bisendra Melaram: What's up gents living 

Jason Kleiger: the dream word up magazine I don't I don't remember what I was doing 15 minutes ago. So that's what's up. That was a long intro.

Yeah Yeah, 

Bisendra Melaram: I gotta get a shorter again. I think the shorter ones were better. 

Jason Kleiger: I like that one It was comforting and homie. I just can't wait to hear what Sue has. Yeah Well, it's got to 

Bisendra Melaram: be comforting cuz you got to be comfortable with your title insurance. 

Jason Kleiger: Oh title insurance is crucial, but go ahead Oh, that's a nice 

Bisendra Melaram: Sue 

So tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Sue Baran: Well, let's see, uh, we can start from the very beginning. 

Bisendra Melaram: Sure. 

Sue Baran: When I was born. Well, maybe not that far back. We'll just go back. I'm a graduate of Queens College in Flushing and, uh, I first started out as a journalist and decided to then change the game a little bit and I went into title insurance starting at, uh, A known title company, Title Guarantee, very old title company, which [00:02:00] ultimately became, uh, Tycor Title, which then merged with Chicago Title, which then was taken over by Fidelity Title.

And then I went, uh, the abstract and then formed my own title agency, Land Baron Abstract, and then, uh, Land Bound Services. 

Bisendra Melaram: Interesting, interesting. So how long have you been, if you had to put a number on the number of years you've been in title, how many years would you say that would be? 

Sue Baran: I started in 1986.

Bisendra Melaram: Okay. She didn't want to tell us the years. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, that's a pretty long time. I, I wasn't born yet. Oh, why'd you have to throw that in? That just shows the gravity of your experience. Yes. I guess so. I'm sorry for that. All right. I'll forgive you. 

Bisendra Melaram: So, for those of us that don't know, what is title insurance?

Because a lot of consumers, buyers particularly, do not understand or know the term title insurance. [00:03:00] I find that they get it confused with, my name is on title, meaning their name is on the deed. 

Sue Baran: You know, actually, they get it confused with homeowner's insurance. What? Yeah. They do. Yep. The first thing is homeowner's insurance and you got to kind of like back them out of that and then explain what title insurance is and explain to them it's a one time premium unlike a homeowner's insurance which is a yearly premium.

So this is a one time premium for however long you own the house and that's it. So to me it's one of the best investments out there. The premium is not that high in comparison to what you pay for. homeowners insurance on a yearly basis and you're covered for any defects entitled. You're covered for your homeownership.

Bisendra Melaram: Right, so let's talk about that defects entitled. Explain that to us a little bit because. 

Sue Baran: I can give you uh, two defects. The first would be you're buying your house from John Doe, Jane Doe and um, [00:04:00] and you get a deed, okay, into your name and only to ultimately find out that it was a fraudulent deed. So, if you didn't obtain title insurance, then you would not be insured and in that respect, it could become very difficult because you literally will lose your investment in the house because if John Doe and Jane Doe were actually over, you know, snow birding in Florida and you had somebody else portraying them right down to fake identification and you didn't purchase title insurance and mind you, in the 38 years that I'm doing this, Only twice did I have somebody say, um, we're not going to purchase title insurance and the attorneys representing them whip out

an actual hold harmless and indemnity saying, if you're really not going to purchase this title insurance for 2, 100, um, I'm going to be covered. And you can't come back to me for not only just that, but let's say, um, [00:05:00] You're buying a house and then the seller's mortgage is being paid off and something happens and the seller's mortgage does not get paid off.

The check bounces or never FedEx never gets it there or the wire for some reason has a blip in the number and it never gets there. Well, you know what? You got the seller's mortgage on your property. 

Bisendra Melaram: Right. So here's the thing. Don't, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Marcus. Do banks not require title insurance?

Do they not want to see the title report? 

Jason Marcus: Oh, they a thousand percent want to. Mm hmm. 

Bisendra Melaram: Oh, 

Sue Baran: because they've got the same interest. They have the same interest. The only thing is that the bank doesn't have to pay for the title insurance. The onus falls on the purchaser slash borrower to pay for both the fee, title insurance, the owner's title insurance, and the lender's.

Title insurance. Because there's two different pieces to the insurance. But you get what's called a simultaneous rate when they purchase both together. 

Jason Kleiger: [00:06:00] And just to buttress off of um, discussing what attorneys do when their clients refuse to buy title insurance, I've told clients that I refuse to represent them.

Not just here's a CYA sign it saying that I disagree with you or I'm advising you to purchase title insurance and you're not. No, I don't do that. I say, I will not represent you and then. Get up and 

Speaker 2: walk out. Yeah, I 

Jason Kleiger: will. I will get up and walk out. Uh, it's happened a couple times. Uh, they say, oh, you don't think that's necessary.

And I said, all right, well, I'm refusing to represent you going forward. And they always come back and then they, they buy a title insurance. But that's how, yeah, that's how important I feel, uh, title insurance is. I mean, obviously if I'm willing to drop a client for not doing that, then clearly it's something that is 100 percent necessary.

Here we go. 

Bisendra Melaram: So you were telling us about that story where someone, fraudulently took title of someone else's property. What, what other good story do you have? 

Sue Baran: [00:07:00] Oh, and I, I mean, I have several, which, uh, actually. 

Bisendra Melaram: Pick the worst one. 

Sue Baran: Um, I want the worst one. 

Bisendra Melaram: Ratings. No, it's not even, I, the worst story is the best story.

Sue Baran: So I had a power of attorney, uh, attorney, in fact, um, was the son of The father gave the son the power of attorney and they were, he was refining, they were refinancing. They both owned the property collectively and they were refinancing and, uh, only the son, uh, was on the note. He's the only one that had the promise to pay.

So they didn't have to run the father's credit, but the father has to join in on the mortgage, the security instrument. Uh, so that's why the power of attorney was, uh, created. Power of attorney was fortunate. And the son had actually had his friend notarize it without being in front of the dad. And the son provided his friend with his dad's driver's license, [00:08:00] because they lived together.

And then when the father found out that now all of a sudden, a 300, 000 mortgage was going onto the property that had originally been paid in full, His son had a gambling habit. Um, yeah, same. 

Jason Marcus: Have you ever been in a situation, because I've seen it, where, let's say that type of scenario occurred, where the father wasn't in the right mind, where you as a title closer actually stopped the closing, because you're like, this person cannot make decisions based on Yes, 

Sue Baran: and that has happened 

Jason Marcus: as well.

Yeah, because I've seen that happen once where Uh, the thought, like, it's like, clearly, this person was just not in their right state of mind, and one of the children's was trying to play the game. In that case, 

Sue Baran: there should have been a special power of attorney, you know, for competency, if they're not competent.

You know, because you do have that as well. 

Jason Kleiger: Well, certain POAs, they, you know, supersede someone [00:09:00] being incompetent. So, if someone is incompetent, you could still use a POA 

Sue Baran: for that person. Only, only if. It, it really, it really does depend if the power of attorney has to say it in there. Say it in there, yep.

Say it in there, yep. 

Bisendra Melaram: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That's interesting. 

Jason Marcus: Yeah, very interesting. 

Bisendra Melaram: walk us through the process of getting title insurance. what has to happen on your end? 

Sue Baran: Uh, from, from the application? 

Bisendra Melaram: From the application. So, when an attorney calls you up, how do, how do people find you?

Sue Baran: So, generally, yeah. So, generally, the rule of thumb is the purchaser's attorney will order the title insurance. Uh, the title insurance. However, in, in the last three years, there's been a push to, for actual buyers to opt in. That's why they would do their own research and not necessarily go with what their attorneys pick.

And we've had a few of those. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah because, well, I consider myself, you know, having above average knowledge. I know that you can shop your title insurance. I mean, I'm also in the business. So I knew from a very young [00:10:00] age you can shop your you don't have to use the suggestion or recommendation of an attorney.

But I would always take Mr. Kleiger's advice. It's 

Sue Baran: the, I mean, the reason that you. file your attorney's lead on it is because generally they have a relationship with this title company and they can navigate quickly. They know who to talk to the clearance counsel, the reporting clerk, the processing department.

They know the people. Oh, and, and quite frankly, a lot of people just call me directly, Hey, Sue, listen, I got this problem. I need this title rush. Can you get it to me in 24 hours? 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Sue Baran: Yeah. You know, we can jump through hoops. 

Bisendra Melaram: So. let's go with your, your protocol, right? The attorney, the buyer's attorney calls you up, says, Sue, I need title.

What then happens? So, 

Sue Baran: I mean, nowadays, nobody's calling anybody up. So I get an email from the attorney with the contract of sale. 

Speaker 2: Okay. 

Sue Baran: Here's a tax contract of sale. Can you order, can you order title and, and get me survey forms. Boom. That's it. 

Speaker 2: It's 

Sue Baran: no longer, it used to be they were filling out [00:11:00] this application and then, you know, now you don't just send me the contract of sale and it's got everything in it that I need.

Literally everything in it that I need. 

Bisendra Melaram: Okay. And what is it that you need? 

Sue Baran: Uh, I need the purchase price. I need the proposed mortgage amount. If there's going to be one and the lender if they have it. In many cases they don't have a lender yet, but that's fine. That could be TBD. Um, I need survey instructions.

'cause generally, um, if it's with a lender, are they gonna want SER a survey? Some lenders don't require a SUR survey, but I would say. And any of the, any of the clients that I deal with, with any of the lenders that I deal with, they want the survey. 

Jason Kleiger: Even all cash. I always suggest getting a survey. Well, 

Sue Baran: yeah, because I mean, you just, it's, again, in most cases you can usually locate a survey.

So then you're only just talking about, you know, an inspection. An endorsement, yeah. A hundred dollar inspection. I 

Jason Kleiger: had a, a deal in Staten Island. The guy's house next door was on their property line by like three feet. What? 

Sue Baran: Yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: Three feet? Yeah. Three feet. So you can't have insured title when it comes to that.

Sue Baran: [00:12:00] Oh yeah. I had one where, where, where the next door neighbor put his blacktop driveway. 

Speaker 2: Mm 

Sue Baran: hmm. Just went right through the neighbor's property like by like literally 30 feet. 

Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 

Sue Baran: It was insane. What? Yeah. Yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: So get a survey. 

Bisendra Melaram: Most buyers now want to know where their property line is. I have yet to find one that doesn't want a, a survey to know where they can put their fence up and all that other good stuff.

So, other than a, so what hap in the case that there is no survey, who orders the survey? Would you order the survey or would the buyer's attorney order it? 

Sue Baran: So we generally will send the buyer's attorney three three quotes. Three quotes from three different surveyors with us. Okay. You know, it's a lot easier and it's, we use pretty much the same surveyors that we know that are gonna get it done quickly.

Right, within a reasonable amount of time. You know, occasionally we've had a problem with a surveyor, and then we drop them like a potato. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah, because it's your reputation. 

Jason Kleiger: But they also know that if they, you know, they're, you're going to them so [00:13:00] often that they have to kind of like jump, jump up and, you know, as far as you tell them to, to get something done.

Because, look, they drop the ball, you'll drop them. And, you know, that's a big account. 

Sue Baran: There was a time back a couple of years ago when literally it was taking surveyors like three weeks. Mm hmm. I'm like, you're killing the deal here. You gotta. You gotta. You gotta.

Bisendra Melaram: So, once you have the survey what else do you look for?, 

Sue Baran: uh, What's the name of the puzzle? Um, Okay, Let's say, Uh, Let's say it's, Let's say it's the, The, The, The, The, it through our examiners. Examiners being first out, the examiner that is at the county clerk, where the property, the, the county that, where the property is located in and then we have our municipal searchers because generally, I mean, not all lenders again, but a lot of the lenders want municipal searchers, but No, it depends on 

Jason Marcus: product for in my case, but like you're a hundred percent, right?

But I will 

Sue Baran: say to you any attorney that wants to [00:14:00] keep their license better Yeah. You don't order municipal searches to save your client, you know, a couple hundred dollars and bingo, you get, there's no CO on the property. 18 open permits, no CO. You just, you just literally lost your license to practice law.

There's no CO on the property. Yeah, I mean, I don't understand why Pennywise literally dollar, dollar, dollar free. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, or if they have a C, a C, uh, excuse me, a C. O. for like a one, one story house and next thing you know, it's like two and a half stories with like an extra garage here. So you really have, like as an attorney, you have to compare the survey and what you're getting to what's on file with the C.

O. and, and, you know, if they're obviously open permits. But if the C. O. says one, one story, one family brick house and next thing you know, you see, uh, you know, two and a half stories with an extension. Oh, I got a story about that. Yeah. 

Sue Baran: Yeah. Okay. A house in Levittown, this, this guy was a real, uh, Rube Goldberg, and he put on his own extension to, [00:15:00] to a house in Levittown, you know, cause he had pretty, pretty, a lot of property in the backyard.

Put it on, and 20 years went, went by, and they decided to sell the house, and when you go into that part, it kinda like dips, and you see, like, ruffling like that, and he didn't have a CO. He's, I don't, you know. You need, you need, you need a CO. And, 

Jason Kleiger: and the big thing is, if, if, if the town comes in and says you don't have a CO for this, looks at it and condemns it, now, half your house is missing.

So that's the importance of making sure that everything is CO'd, that the town had signed off on it, because that's the worst that'll happen, is that they'll condemn it. Shoddy construction. And next thing you know you have 

Sue Baran: a fire underwriter's certificate. I mean, there's so many things that stem out of, That's why rules are made.

Follow the rules. 

Bisendra Melaram: Right. So, other than those types of searches for C.O.'S and building permits and stuff like that, what other searches are performed on the title? 

Sue Baran: Bankruptcy searches, Patriot searches, okay. 

Bisendra Melaram: [00:16:00] So, and what's the purpose of Those red light tickets. Yeah. So, what's the purpose of It's every time.

So, what's the purpose of the 

Sue Baran: Judgment and lien searches, yeah. So, what's the purpose of those searches? So, in the case of a purchase, all right, you're run I mean, anything that you're running against the buyer, you know, because it's a first purchase money mortgage, The purchase money mortgage takes precedent over anything on the buyer side, but the lender is Gonna want the buyer to clean up that right whatever but essentially that's not affecting title Okay, but on the seller side.

Yeah, I mean you're gonna have those hundred dollar Red light tickets, they gotta be cleaned up. 

Jason Marcus: I've seen like, And let me tell you, I've 

Sue Baran: seen thousands, thousands, 

Bisendra Melaram: thousands. 

Jason Marcus: No way. Oh you can't even, yeah. Gotta 

Sue Baran: clean everything up. And it's 

Jason Marcus: the worst, what happens? And the crazy things that like a lot of people don't understand is relationships between husbands and wives don't necessarily mean that a husband or a wife knows the inner workings [00:17:00] of their counterpart.

So I have been in plenty of situations where I have to explain to the person who is handling the mortgage side, which a lot of times it's only one of the two of them. And when I start to have to explain that their spouse owes thousands of dollars in tickets, because this appeared on the title. And after the first Set of denial that they're living in and they're done with that phase and they come to the acceptance that like this is Absolutely against this person There has been some fun conversations Arguments that have occurred because of that so pay your tickets and then you won't have to tell your husband 

Jason Kleiger: and Let me bring up something that seems so simple yet is so crucial water 

Sue Baran: Oh, well, especially now in Suffolk County, they're coming after you.

Jason Kleiger: Yes, and also, water generally will go with the property and not with the people selling it. [00:18:00] And a lot of people don't understand that an outstanding water balance on the account will actually stay with the property, and it will not follow. So, if I own a house for 10 years, I never pay my water, okay? Or I have a leak, one or the other.

And next thing you know, I owe 50, 000 in water and sewer charges, whatever. 

Speaker 2: And that's conceivable. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, totally. So 50, 000 I owe in water charges. And I'm like, well, you know, I'm selling it, I'll just, you know, whatever, goodbye. And it does not follow me, the seller. It stays with the house. So now, I'm Mr.

Buyer. I'm like, oh, thank you, cool, I'm living in this house, this new house. And boom, there's a 50, 000 judgment on the property that I now own. And, you know, I'm sure you've seen some crazy stuff with water, but, and, and don't believe what's on the bill. You know, and that's the thing, people don't, people see the bill and a lot of times it's on estimates.

Sue Baran: Well, and that's just it. And it's, and it's, and it's, it's retro, it's retroactive, it goes [00:19:00] back. So you really need to get an updated bill at closing, you know, to the date, a water reading. And if you cannot get that, then you need to have the seller's attorney hold money on that. That's retro. Until that can be vetted out.

Jason Kleiger: Because, you know, like I've seen absolute nightmares when it comes to just water. And you think it's nothing. You think, ah, you know, I use water and in my bill, you know, especially in some parts of Suffolk, it's like 30 a month, or not 30, it's like, I think it was 60 or 70 for a quarter. Yeah, I used to 

Jason Marcus: live in Suffolk.

It was fairly cheap. Yeah, 

Sue Baran: but New York City. New York City, because I live in Queens now. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get two loads of laundry, it costs me 106. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty substantial. You gotta pay for it coming 

Bisendra Melaram: in and going out. Oh, that's funny. So, uh, you said something about, uh, Patriot Search?

Sue Baran: Yeah. So they want to make sure that you're not a terrorist. 

Bisendra Melaram: Oh, is that what that is? Yeah, yeah. Which is 

Jason Marcus: kind of them. 

Sue Baran: That came out of 9 [00:20:00] 11. I've had that problem. That came out of 9 11. 

Jason Marcus: Yeah. And like, one of these clients just had a common name flagged, and I'm sitting at a closing and just hours going by to get him cleared in regards to that part of it on the Patriot Act.

Oh, yeah. Like, this was closer to 9 11 where it was obviously far more. Um, there was far more security going on with this type of stuff and everything, everything was being scrutinized. So that was, that was problematic. And you have the one of these common names, forget about it. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh yeah. 

Sue Baran: And that goes with anything with the title report, because if your name is John Smith, you know, Jose Rodriguez, the title report is that bad.

Bisendra Melaram: Okay. So other than that, what else is going in the search? 

Sue Baran: Taxes. So taxes. Taxes are big. Yeah. You know, if, uh. If you're buying a property off of a seller who hasn't paid their taxes, the taxes go to tax lien, it's a tax sale. [00:21:00] It's, it's, it's scary. First position. Yeah. Mm hmm. It, it, it, it supersedes anything also with, uh, same with the federal tax lien.

Mm hmm. Same thing. So, yeah. You want to be protected against all of that. Make sure all of that is paid. 

Jason Marcus: Super important, this title, people. Oh, 

Sue Baran: yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, and, and, you know, we talk about taxes, too, just like water. It runs with the land. Yeah. You know, so it'll, it could be a judgment on the land. The property can be in a tax lien foreclosure.

You know, it's, it's just one of these things that, you know, title and, and that's why title is so crucial to attorneys is that we need to know about what exactly is going on. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah. So how many searches are really in this title search? Because I just counted five. 

Jason Marcus: Yeah, there's many. 

Sue Baran: There's many. I mean, so how many 

Bisendra Melaram: more?

Sue Baran: If you, if it's, if it's, you could order searches, you know, what comes up solar. 

Bisendra Melaram: Well, the solar one actually. What comes up. I've had experience with that recently. There's only C one. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Um, 

Sue Baran: for the solar searches, uh, I mean, I mean you name it any sort of judgment, any is 

Bisendra Melaram: Okay. So you, you [00:22:00] complete all the searches.

Uh, when the searches come back, you review it and then what? Then you pass it along back to the buyer's attorney or, uh, 

Sue Baran: so the minute we get the, when we type the title report up, it goes out to the purchaser's attorney. The seller's attorney, the lender's attorney. 

Bisendra Melaram: Okay, so everyone gets it simultaneously.

Yes, they 

Sue Baran: review, um, at the same time. If, if there are divots, if there are problems with the title report, immediately, um, I have clearance counsel, um, their attorney, his name is Phil Roman, and he's been in the business now. He's a little bit older than me, so he's in the business now maybe 41, 42 years. He knows his stuff, title, and so any, any problems the seller's attorney can call Phil, Clear up the exceptions, figure it out.

A lot of times what we're seeing, and have been seeing, is old mortgages. I'll show you. Yeah, these 

Jason Marcus: banks are like ridiculous. We talked about it on our last podcast, like they're just They just don't file the SAT, and it's just Well, they've gone out of business. [00:23:00] 

Sue Baran: Yeah, they got absorbed. Dartmouth. Dartmouth is a big one.

They got absorbed. You know that one, Dartmouth? Forget it. They never, they didn't file anything. 

Bisendra Melaram: What was that one bank that everybody, I had a problem with? Washington Mutual. 

Sue Baran: There you go. 

Jason Marcus: Yeah, they got acquired by Chase. Oh, they did? Yeah, they became Chase. But even so Let's try and track that down. It's like It's like Ocwen, too.

It's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, we could just, and IndyMac, like, we could just go down, like, one after the other after the other. Nationwide 

Sue Baran: became Mr. Cooper. Yeah, 

Jason Marcus: all this stuff. I mean, yeah. It's crazy. But we 

Sue Baran: also have, um, so, if we, if, if let's say it's actually against the seller, and they just cannot get the, the SAT, there are some companies out there that'll do it before you have to do a bar claim action.

There are some actual companies out there, uh, that actually will. So I'm gonna be able to do the deep digging and get you sat. And they don't charge that much. 

Jason Kleiger: Oh, like that guy? I'm actually really good at it. Are you? You go to the Federal Reserve website, and you find out who the current bank is, and you just nag them, [00:24:00] and write letters saying that you're gonna sue them.

Bisendra Melaram: Oh, well you get paid by the hour, I don't. 

Jason Kleiger: Who says that? I'm a real estate attorney. This guy 

Sue Baran: charges like 300 bucks, and he gets it. So you 

Jason Kleiger: could call me and I'll get it. I'm pretty good at it. How much did you charge, 

Bisendra Melaram: 250? 250, 

Jason Kleiger: 000, yeah. I don't know, I was just referring to you. This guy isn't even in 

Sue Baran: New York, he's in like Missouri.

Oh, what a 

Jason Kleiger: niche. What a niche practice. Yeah. All you do is just track down and we gotta hunt on SATs all day. Why not? We 

Sue Baran: refer 'em probably three, four times a month. Wow. Easy. What? 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a point in time there. Or even UCCs too. UCC threes. 'cause you get UCC ones that are from like 1980 and it's the same thing, you know, when you have a either a fixture filing or a real estate record for, you know, a lien on a property to get a UCC three Well.

Okay. We could go. I love, I love when he, like, he puffs, he resets, he 

Jason Marcus: resets, puffs up, and he's like, ready to say something clever, but then ahead, then I can't, no . Why? Just finish, finish. Can't. 

Bisendra Melaram: We're we're, it makes for a [00:25:00] good tv. We're recording. I can't say, it's 

Sue Baran: funny. I had a, I had a deal going back last summer.

Um, it was, it was, I believe it or not, a refinance and uh, a mechanic lien showed on the property and we reached out to the borrower. The borrower was like, yeah, that was nice. My freaking screwed up contractor. I'm not paying him. I'm not paying him. He didn't do the work. Well, you know, the plumber that he hired did the work and he never got paid.

And boom, you got a lien on the property. That's not my fault. That's not my fault. I'm like, well, you gotta Otherwise you can't take out this loan. Mmm. Or we're gonna have to hold an escrow, double the amount. 

Bisendra Melaram: So is that the only way to satisfy a mechanic's lien? By taking 2x escrow for the amount? We'll hold 

Sue Baran: it until they resolve it.

We'll give them A couple of months to resolve it. And then if they don't resolve it, 

Jason Kleiger: they're paying it. They pay it, 

Sue Baran: they're paying it. 

Jason Kleiger: Because you could always negotiate it. Yeah. The, the borrower can always, or the, you know, the prior, the, the, the seller. If, if they're selling, if it's a borrower for the refi, they can negotiate it.

So [00:26:00] why would they want to just sit on it and then let title doesn't care. They'll pay out the full amount. They, you know. Yeah. It's not their money. Yeah. So obviously it, it behooves the bar, the borrower, if they're refinancing or the, or the seller, if they're selling to negotiate with. Uh, the plumber.

Sue Baran: Yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah. And 

Sue Baran: you know, interestingly enough, with judgments, that's the one thing that's phenomenal. It's like, it's like getting your optimum bill lessened. Yeah. You just, you can negotiate anything. Yeah. Mm hmm. You owe 10, 000. I'll give you 5, 000. Okay. Yeah. No, It's 

Bisendra Melaram: gonna have to get paid one way or the other the next couple days.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'd rather get 

Sue Baran: that than get nothing. Exactly. 

Bisendra Melaram: Mm. That's interesting. 

Jason Kleiger: That's like some, some violations in the city. ECBs, Environmental Control Board violations. For example, they, uh, you know, the title will hold double escrow for that and you can probably negotiate it to about 20 cents on the dollar and then get all that money back from title that they're escrowing, uh, you know, a hundred percent of that money if you pay it out of pocket at the time.

So those are some things that I [00:27:00] would suggest. You want a quick closing? All right. Put this in escrow title. And then negotiate it with the city, you get that? Well, that's how I explain 

Bisendra Melaram: escrow, at closing. It's only there, it's a remedy in the case that you are unable to do it yourself. Yeah, and then you sit on it 

Jason Kleiger: and do nothing.

Yeah, 

Bisendra Melaram: and then you sit there and you're like, oh, I already got the big part of my check, I don't need that little part of the check. Exactly. So what other kinds of liens show up, other than mechanics, tax liens, other judgments, what else have you seen? I'm looking for the juicy stuff, Sue, come on. 

Sue Baran: I mean I mean, we've, I mean, I can tell you what just recently happened.

I'm in, I'm in the middle of a problem that started with the pandemic. So if you recall, during the pandemic, there was limited access to the county clerk's office for the examiners. And so I have a very long term client that had a guy that was just buying properties for investment, investment just one after another, after another, and I was lucky to get the deals.

And, uh, I get a phone call a couple of weeks ago. Hey, sue [00:28:00] I want I just emailed you this easement. It never showed up in our title report I'm looking at the title report. Okay, the title was july 2020 All right, so well Like I say the name of the attorney That was uh, that was literally begin their pandemic I said, let me reach out to my examiner 

Speaker 2: My 

Sue Baran: examiner shot me back We had limited access.

We, this, we didn't turn it out because it, they didn't, it wasn't there. It wasn't there to turn out. I said, what do you mean it wasn't there to turn it out to be there? Well, we had limited access, we weren't allowed, so we, we didn't, that wasn't turned out. And then she says, but you, you know, you definitely had an exception in your title report regarding, you know, an indemnity for limited access.

And I'm like, mm hmm. And so then I said, oh my god, I hope that the affidavit was signed. Get the file, get the file, pull the file up, bingo. Affidavit was signed, giving us indemnity because there was limited [00:29:00] access. But what did the easement turn out? The easement was from 1952, signed between 8 and 10. Uh, 8 and 10, that's Smith Street, okay.

And what it said was that 10 will erect the wall, but 8 had to maintain the wall. It was a 144 foot stone wall. We were insuring 8. 

Bisendra Melaram: I'm 

Sue Baran: thinking to myself, oh I gotta, I had to, I had to drive to the property. I'm not kidding, I couldn't even sleep. This was at night. When he hit my, I had to get in the car and I had to drive to the property.

To see, I said, oh my god, this stone wall is caving in. Huh. So and I hit him back and we found out I said listen, I'm gonna be honest with you You could definitely put the claim in go ahead. But the reality is Your client signed this indemnity. So I don't know what's gonna happen But yeah, that's that was a that's a big one Imagine 140 foot stone wall.

Jason Marcus: I mean that's some wall. 

Sue Baran: That's a wall [00:30:00] That's a wall. That's expensive. 

Jason Marcus: That's a big wall. 

Jason Kleiger: That's 

Sue Baran: expensive. That's a lot 

Jason Kleiger: of stone. And a stone. That's a lot of stone. it's a fence. That's a lot of labor. 

Sue Baran: Yeah, yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: Forget about 

Sue Baran: the stone. The labor. 

Jason Kleiger: That's when you just wait for everyone to die, and then, you know, it kind of, the easement either goes away if not used, or, if it doesn't run with the land, everyone that dies, you know, hey.

Alright, cool. Everyone died. No easement. We'll carry on. 

Sue Baran: But, you know, interestingly enough, so, That was the first of the pandemic problems. Couple that with the Suffolk County hack. 

Speaker 2: We, as title 

Sue Baran: insurers, are probably going, first of all, we're in the slowest period of our lives right now, and then once things start to hit and things start to move and sales start to happen and we start to get more titles, we're probably going to see a lot of claims from that period of time.

Thank you. 

Jason Kleiger: Because things will, will open up. Because, yeah, 

Sue Baran: everything's gonna open up. People, people will now be selling. They'll be, 

Jason Kleiger: yeah. 

Sue Baran: And so, more [00:31:00] title companies will be insuring, and more things are gonna crop up that were missed from 2020 to, you know, past the Suffolk County hack. 

Jason Marcus: Mm hmm. That takes me to my question.

I don't know if you can answer this, but New York, throughout the country, has one of, if not the highest, insurance, title insurance rates that people have to pay. Is that due to claims or just because we live in New York and they can get more money from people? 

Sue Baran: Oh, I think it's a combination. For sure.

Absolutely. I think it's a combination of claims. So when the claims come in, they come in. 

Jason Kleiger: I, I have a question. So from an early time in my attorneyhood, um, you know, my mentor was, always taught me to, you know, suggest the market value rider. Can you explain the market value rider and how you feel about it?

When 

Sue Baran: I bought my house, um, it was new construction. I got the market value rider. I think that for the [00:32:00] extra 300 bucks, if it even gets to that, it's just not that expensive. What I mean, there's so many other things. You just don't, What if? 

Jason Kleiger: I just don't know. Yeah, what does that cover? Can you tell the people listening what the market value rider is different than title insurance?

It covers 

Sue Baran: the gap between when you purchased, let's say you bought the house for 500, 000 and in the way things are going these days, you know, prices are moving up 20, 30, 40 percent a year it seems. I'd say you go to sell three, four years from now, or you, or you, or the value of the house in four years now you bought it for 500, 000 and now the value is 2, 000, 000.

All I know is that right now the median sale price, sales price in Nassau County is 750, 000. Easy. 

Speaker 2: Easy. For 

Sue Baran: that three bedroom, one and a half bath, 1, 500 square foot house. I mean it's insane. So, yeah. I think it's pretty good. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's, that's a good market. If you 

Sue Baran: add a percentage off those numbers, it's phenomenal.

I think it's pretty good. but [00:33:00] Bisendra, it is pretty good if rates were two and a half percent, three percent. Not pretty good with rates at seven percent. 

Jason Marcus: Agreed. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah, I think we all can agree on that. That's 

Sue Baran: expensive. 

Bisendra Melaram: Oh yeah. Yeah, but even still, even if the rate, even if the rate was today was eight percent, that's still cheap money.

But, 

Sue Baran: but it, it isn't cheap money. It is. If we 

Bisendra Melaram: consider if, right, because we're following trends. So if we go back ten years. We're going to the salaries. Right. Right. Right. 20 years. But, yeah. 

Sue Baran: It's not. 

Bisendra Melaram: I mean. It's not. But when, okay, I'll give you for instance. I don't think two generations have seen that. And I like talking about my father because that's where a lot of this experience comes from.

So in, uh, 1980 Yeah, it was like 17%. Yeah, let's just call it. 85. Let's just call it 85. And, and 

Sue Baran: I paid 15%. He had, he, 

Bisendra Melaram: how much? 15%. Right, I was just gonna say he paid 15 percent for the first house that, uh, him and my mother purchased. 15%. So there's no way that the salary of, let's just, everyone likes using fast food [00:34:00] workers.

A fast food worker was making enough money to cover 15 percent interest, same as today. So if the interest rate was 15 percent a fast food worker, even though salaries has increased, could never afford it. 

Sue Baran: I know, but you're not really Let's take the fast food worker out of the 

Bisendra Melaram: equation. But that's what the news gauges everything against.

But that's ridiculous. Minimum wage, right? 

Sue Baran: Yeah. 

Bisendra Melaram: None of them can buy houses at any point in time. 

Sue Baran: Right. But, but, but, but, actually go with your college educated individual. Mm-Hmm. in, in the range of, what did you, who is it who said 26 to 36 years old? Which one of you were saying that? 

Jason Kleiger: I said 26 to 36. I, 

Sue Baran: that's a 

Jason Kleiger: different number you're talking about.

If you're talking about Kleiger. 

Bisendra Melaram: I'm . I, I forget what I did 10 minutes ago, so. 

Sue Baran: Oh, okay. So, I don't know. Oh, 

Bisendra Melaram: 26 to 36. Is that, uh, average consumer purchasing right now? Oh 

Sue Baran: yeah. That right, that was your talking, you about it. Yeah. So, so think about it. So your 26-year-old is what, three years outta college? Three, yeah.

Bisendra Melaram: I mean, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot [00:35:00] of student debt, but there's a lot of other things from that equation that are missing.specifically where they're getting the down payment from. They're getting the down payment from, no, no, no, but that's how they're avoiding the PMI. Now there's like little intricacies to the transaction that people are miss, that not really focused on, you know, they don't have, 26 year old, like you said, three years out of college, how much are they making?

Let's just say for argument's sake, they're making six figures. They're making a hundred thousand, 

Sue Baran: which they're 

Bisendra Melaram: not. But we'll be generous to them. They're making a hundred thousand. And they they absolutely do not have the down payment ability, the ability to put down substantial down payment. But where they're getting it from is from their relatives, specifically their parents, who are like, I don't want you living in my basement.

Take this money. I 

Jason Kleiger: wish. 

Bisendra Melaram: Take 

Sue Baran: 1985 when I bought and I was, I was 24 and I, um, my parents didn't give me the money. You know, I was working two jobs. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah, but, it's different now. So I'm pointing at you only for the, I'm not pointing at [00:36:00] you to point at you. I'm pointing at you because I want to make a point.

the doctor that we closed, during COVID, at the height of COVID, where did she get her down payment from? Oh yeah. But you know what? Doctors with a contract. 

Sue Baran: But she has probably scooped student loans up the yin yang. Yes, 

Bisendra Melaram: she did, but most people leaving college do have student loans.

But that's where she got the down payment from. It's just, I'm trying to show that that's where the trend is going. 

Jason Kleiger: Well, there was a recent news, I forget what outlet it was on, but discussing how You know, millennials and I think whatever generation is above the millennials, I don't know what they're called, but that they're the generations of inheritance.

Yes. And that they're inheriting the most wealth of any generation that ever came before them. Oh, no doubt. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 

Bisendra Melaram: Because that generation before them. Mm-Hmm. is holding all the money. Yes. . 

Jason Kleiger: We won't say which generation that is, but 

Bisendra Melaram: I mean, I could, but it's the baby boomers. The boomers, thank you.

The boomers The boomers are holding. Yeah. No, no, they're, they're [00:37:00] holding all the money. Everybody knows it's not, it's not a secret because. A large portion of them have, in essence, paid off their property. So they're sitting on all this cash, and that's why they're giving it. I want an inheritance too, but But 

Sue Baran: they've, you know, but the reality is baby boomers are now living to a hundred.

Uh, so they gotta be careful. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah, don't plan, uh, don't plan your home purchase on getting an inheritance from your parents. Just don't, don't base it off of that. Do it your own. Do it your own way. Okay. You know, make smart financial decisions, don't learn from me, and yeah. Don't learn 

Bisendra Melaram: from any of us. Don't learn from any of us.

Okay, so let's go back a little bit to title insurance. So now you get a report, everyone's in agreement with your findings. explain to us the insurance part of the title. 

Sue Baran: So the way it works, so when you say everybody's in agreement, what happens is Nothing, if we're doing, uh, the traditional closing with the [00:38:00] lender, nothing moves until you get the clear to close from the lender.

The minute you get the clear to close from the lender and assuming title is clear, the closing date is set, and then we all go to closing. So at the closing table, you have your purchase's attorney, your seller's attorney, your lender's attorney, and your title closer, and then your borrower's and seller's, and then the real estate agent.

Um, and then, uh, the title closer will mark the report, get the necessary affidavits to clear the exceptions, get the payoff from the seller's attorney, you know, confirm the figures of the payoff. I mean, all general, I mean, now with, since, since 2014, it's actually all done ahead of time. Uh 

Speaker 2: huh. 

Sue Baran: Because you want to be closing.

Your closing disclosure has to be pretty much done. Um, but so, but you're doing this whole act at the closing table and you should be done assuming that everybody does their part, you should be done in under an hour. And you are then give the purchaser's attorney 

Speaker 2: [00:39:00] a 

Sue Baran: copy of the fee title insurance policy and you give to the purchaser the fee policy, the title insurance policy and then you give to the lender's attorney the lender's title policy.

Jason Kleiger: I want my markup. 

Sue Baran: And the markup, you know, obviously the markup too, and the markup is, the markup shows everything. You know, it shows the taxes, okay, yes, I paid, paid per continuation or paid because we paid it by direct check, et cetera. 

Bisendra Melaram: Okay. So the, from what I'm understanding is that the title insurance is ensuring the accuracy of the documents or the title search?

Sue Baran: Well first, it's, it's, it's, it's many layers. So the title, the title insurance is first. ensuring, E N, that there are no liens now on the property. Everything is now been cleared. All the judgements were cleared. All the mortgages were cleared. Um, we freshened up the taxes. Everything is paid, including stuff that is post closing.

Right. Taxes. Because most lenders want 60 [00:40:00] days of taxes that are due to be paid up front. So the title company will take the money. The April tax in Nassau County and the May tax in Suffolk County right now, and they'll set it to pay, okay? And then, you issue to the policies, you'll make sure that the deed is accurate, make sure the deed, so the way it works is, believe it or not, the mortgage rides this.

So if the mortgage says you are John Samuel Doe and the deed says you're John S. Doe, no, you're John Samuel Doe, you have to go by what the mortgage says. So, you will amend the deed to read John Samuel Doe. Samuel Doe. Sellers will initial it and, uh, they'll make sure the meets and Bounds description, which you're insuring from the title company, are the same as what's in the deed.

You'll collect the transfer taxes that seller has to in, in Nassau and Suffolk County, the, they pay a deed stamps. And then in the boroughs, it's, they pay even, they pay an RPT as well. And if it's over a million dollars, the buyer has to [00:41:00] pay a mansion tax, which is 1 percent of the purchase price. 

Bisendra Melaram: I love that tax.

Sue Baran: And forget it, if you're out in Southampton, you're paying a pecan tax. And that tax is a pricey sucker. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah, it is. But the thing is, it's becoming more and more common. I have to do less and less educating based on price. I said if you're going to break 999. You're going to pay the mansion tax. 

Jason Kleiger: If you pay 9.

99, someone's going to look at it and say, whoa, why is this a thousand dollars under a million? What are we trying to do here? No, 

Bisendra Melaram: what's happening is if the property is listed at 999, they're doing it deliberately not to go over, right? And then here we come with. The buyer is like, okay, I'm just gonna offer a little bit over, and then, and then you break a million, but then they don't realize what they're doing.

Jason Kleiger: Well let the buyer know. Your attorney will, or certainly, oh, I know, I 

Sue Baran: know exactly what's gonna happen. Or they're goes, the loan officer will let them know because it's gonna, it's gonna be disclosed on the closing. Look, his face. I'm just curious 

Jason Marcus: about this. I mean, I'm in my 24th [00:42:00] year of doing this and the Mansion tax has been a million dollars in all 24 of those years.

Mm-Hmm. . Was it always a million dollars, as long as you've been doing 

Sue Baran: this? It started at a million dollars. I 

Jason Marcus: mean, is this insanity? 

Sue Baran: Well, it's insanity now because, you know, in Queens, a million dollars is the, is the three bedroom, one bath attached house with the community driveway. I mean, are we, 

Jason Marcus: like, honestly, can somebody No mansion.

Can somebody bring this up to somebody and be like, Or like have it progressive or something, you know? I mean, how has this not changed in 30, 40 years? Yeah, it 

Jason Kleiger: needs to be 

Jason Marcus: reviewed. I mean, you gotta be kidding me. But it's 

Speaker 2: not, because it's more, Yeah, 

Jason Marcus: there's more tax dollars. Now it's a cash grab, but it's like, this is insane.

Jason Kleiger: Well, Mr. Marcus, right up your alley, mortgage recording tax. In Long Island, Nassau, Suffolk compared to the city for mortgage recording tax. Oh, yeah, it's double I mean, it's not it's absolutely insane. Yes, 

Sue Baran: but by the same token true, you know a mortgage sat in queens is $47 and a mortgage satisfaction.

Speaker 2: Three 

Sue Baran: change. Yeah. Well, [00:43:00] combined It's what? Six six? Six, six. Oh yeah. Combined. 675. It was seven 50. 50 minus 75 now. Yeah. So 675. 

Jason Kleiger: But still, I mean, you know. Well, what's the per i I, I don't remember, but I know that the percentage in the city for mortgage recording taxes. Absolutely insane compared to Nassau you cross a border and you're paying double the percentage 

Jason Marcus: Because there's no oversight and it's like this is where I get frustrated.

It's like right now it's our Government sits there and can scrutinize any industry it wants, but yet nobody gets to scrutinize the municipalities on the egregious things that they're charging. Like, you want to talk about consumer protection? And yeah, I'm going to go on a rant right now. You want me to get on a rant?

I'm going to get on a rant. Who is making these decisions? The decisions on how bad you are taking advantage of your consumers out there by your municipality versus sitting there and scrutinizing. You scrutinized my business on the mortgage side. Thank you for cleaning it up. Okay, great. Now you're doing it to the real estate agent.

Who's [00:44:00] doing it to you? All right. 

Sue Baran: Well, what about that's how 

Jason Marcus: you debate? 

Sue Baran: What about new construction? Everything falls on the buyer and new construction taxes. They're 

Bisendra Melaram: exempt. 

Sue Baran: Well, it's not that they're exempt, because that's not the case. What happens is, they're supposed to pay the transfer tax, but they shift it to the buyer.

So if it's in Manhattan, you, you know, the five boroughs, you are, you are in a major way. I'm doing that right now. 

Jason Kleiger: I'm doing that right now. I'm negotiating a contract for new, you know, new construction and transfer tax being shifted to the buyer, which is generally, you know, paid by the seller. I'm, I'm negotiating it out where the seller has to pay it.

I'm, I'm crossing it out. I'll see how far I get. Yeah, that doesn't 

Sue Baran: work when it's, when it's related, you know. Companies like that, it's not going to happen again. If it's a one off 

Jason Kleiger: person, then you could do it, but. Yeah. Yeah. Even sponsor deals, you know, it's the same thing. They, they push off all their closing costs.

Even their own attorney, you will be paying. Their, their own attorney. 

Jason Marcus: And it's like one guy did that, [00:45:00] 30 years ago, and then it's just a rule, it's, it's unreal how some of this stuff works where you're just like, how did that ever come to be? So, and we're gonna get, because of what's going on in the real estate, like we're, there'll be many podcasts.

Oh, there'll 

Bisendra Melaram: be many, 

Jason Marcus: many podcasts on what's going on there. I, I disclosures or? No, like the, all the litigation . Yeah. So we're just gonna have to call it all of it. The NAR side of it, like obviously, you know, the March 20th rule, which we covered in a, in a previous podcast, and you've been. As you told me off air, like that you've been just explaining out the property disclosures and having those discussions.

We're talking about the real estate commissions and the potential of inevitably getting to a point where this gets deemed unconstitutional. I'll get on that soap box at some point in time, but today's all about title. I'm going to join you. And, and to get back to title because I've been wanting to bring.

I see you ramping up over there. 

Jason Kleiger: All 

Jason Marcus: right. 

Jason Kleiger: Can we tell our listeners and some [00:46:00] so called real estate attorneys That permits, uh, COs and everything like that is not insured by title. Say what? 

Sue Baran: It's not insured by title. It's for information purposes only. We provide you with all those searches for you to read them, for you to understand them, and for you to know when there is an open permit because it's there, we're going to tell you.

And then if you can't connect the dots, open permit means it's not insured. Not closed means not CO. Well, yeah, that's on you. You have an open permit for a deck. That ultimately falls apart. Well, you had an open permit. 

Jason Kleiger: I mean Never 

Sue Baran: got inspected. 

Jason Kleiger: Because I see that and, you know, people have been doing this for 35, 40 years who still think or, you know, I don't know if they think or just have this erroneous belief that this is something that's insured by title.

Like, if all of a sudden you find that there was an open permit, like, the day before closing, your seller just decided to go and take out a permit [00:47:00] Uh, and, you know, on the house, for some reason, whatever reason, I don't see why they would, but that it's not a title issue. And, you know, it's scary, and it's in the title report, but it's not part of what's happening.

Jason Marcus: Sure, but that's why they'll update searches at the very end for that exact purpose because okay, let's give you an example 

Sue Baran: Well, 

Jason Marcus: we're not gonna talk about it being done the day before cuz usually would it be like that crazy Yeah, I don't know what happens is a seller but this could very well happen like a seller is Putting the house on the market big and we've seen this they go out and they start Applying for things that they need to get corrected without realizing that those need to be closed out prior to close, because they think that's what you're supposed to do.

And it's like in, which is crazy to even say that because technically it is what they're supposed to do. Maybe not at the point where they're actually ready to sell should have been way ahead of that. But we've [00:48:00] seen that situation, then it may have been, it may, the title might have been ordered immediately on contract.

That hasn't popped, and then we get to the point where we update these at the end of the transaction, and then it pops. And that's, that can happen. We've seen that happen plenty of times. And then you're just like, oh man, now we gotta, we gotta deal with this. Yeah, 

Jason Kleiger: yeah, I mean, you know, there's always a surprise, I feel, in contins, uh, continuation searches.

Um, where, you know, something pops up, and all of a sudden there's a new judgment, or a new lean, or a new, uh, you know, Anything really can happen. That can ultimately kill 

Speaker 2: a closing. Oh, yeah. 

Jason Kleiger: And, you know, I've had it where we're three days away from closing, or two days away from closing, and then next thing you know, three months later, 90 days later, is finally when we close because they had to clean up something that came up last minute.

And, you know, thank God for Title and doing that because it will, and even stuff that's for information only, it's very valuable [00:49:00] information for us attorneys. Uh, you know, Like, look, at the end of the day, I'm still a, a, a person in a business, and I have to look out for myself. And if all of a sudden, an open permit, or, or, uh, you know, a CO, or, you know, or no CO shows up, I have to protect myself.

And by protecting myself, I have to protect my client as well. And even though it's not something that's insurable by title, it's still something that is crucial to the, uh, the real estate deal. And it's also contemplated in every single contract. In my contracts, I always make sure that there are no violations, no open permits, you know, and, and that's a, a, a conditioned precedent to closing.

Jason Marcus: I was going to, or I asked an expediter to come on the show. He said he'll, uh, come on in four months. That's your dad joke for today, ladies and gentlemen. That's your dad joke right there. Woo! I love it. I love it. Nothing makes me more happy than somebody telling me that there's an expediter involved.

Just like, oh [00:50:00] yeah. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah. I won't hold my breath. Peter the Rabbit is my expediter. I won't hold my breath for that one. I have too many bad stories with expediters. 

Jason Kleiger: I have one giving me a list of things after. Yeah, there's a deal I have with 19 open ECBs, um, and among a lot of other things, and he's like, oh, well, they're missing apps, you know, applications with the city, uh, which are different than open permits, and he's like, I'm going to give you a list of things.

I'm still waiting for that, which means it's going to be voluminous. Oh, we know that. Yeah, so, Yes, thank you expediters, but however we do love expediters when they're on our side. Oh, yeah when they 

Jason Marcus: expedite we love them Yes, yes 

Sue Baran: You know interestingly enough. I just recently had a problem at the closing table Wherein I called to verify figures on a mortgage payoff and they said oh this payoff was sold This this loan was sold.

When was it sold? Oh two days ago Well that happened 

Bisendra Melaram: a lot during like [00:51:00] 2007, like 2008, 9, 10, yeah. So, you know, 

Sue Baran: I look and I said to the, directly to the seller, I said, Did you get any correspondence stating that this was being sold? No, no. Oh, yeah, we got it. Oh, he got it? Got their letters. What? You didn't think to tell?

Maybe something, maybe tell something. I didn't think, I didn't think it mattered. No, of course not. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, that, well, the attorney ordered the payoff the week before, you know, not that, not two days before. And I'm like, Hmm. Well we, we can do anything. We gotta adjourn. 

Bisendra Melaram: Yeah. There's nothing to be done.

Now You gotta gotta, now 

Sue Baran: we gotta wait and get a whole new payoff. We gotta wait, you know? We'll know it could take 30 days. Oh 

Jason Marcus: yeah. 'cause I mean, we gotta wait for the process to, yeah. Complete on the other side. I've been in that situation too, usually on the refinance side. Where it's one of those things where it's like, okay, this has been sold.

I'm trying to track it. I know where it's going. The letter to the seller tells me where it's going. But if the bank receiving that mortgage has to go through their process, and like you said, it might be two, three weeks before all this [00:52:00] stuff is up and running and now documented properly where they can do their calculations and tell us what the payoff is going to be.

So these things delay us. And it's one of those head scratchers where It's like just with a little bit more communication all of this could have been if Woody would have went to the police It's fine there was a time 

Sue Baran: Not that long ago when? Mr. Cooper was just very very difficult to deal with and Any time I send a their request always certified funds.

I always prefer to send You Checks via attorney escrow rather than certified because you can cancel it, right? And so, you know i'm going i'm getting a bank check from I have no control of this bank check. It's it's generally from the The buyer side, okay, and I've had two back to back instances both. Mr.

Cooper [00:53:00] I show delivery because I fed exum. I have it that it was delivered They lost it 

Jason Kleiger: So imagine if that were a bank check 

Sue Baran: it's gone and if they were back, oh they were bank checks problem They only request you have it has to be bank checked well And now i'm sweating sweating because it could take them 60 days yeah, it's some place in the abyss At mr.

Cooper. Yeah, they get so many checks which they then you know, and then I find out it was I read an article on it, but Mr. Cooper is a Lipstick on a pig from nationwide Really oh, 

Jason Kleiger: yeah, they spent millions of dollars to figure out Yeah to figure out a name that people like and most people and make yeah, yeah hanging with mr.

Cooper and Yeah, and so I always Laugh at it You know, they spent, uh, I don't know how many millions of dollars to figure out, uh, a name that makes people feel [00:54:00] warm. Because Nation Star had such a bad reputation. So, I guess they came up with Mr. Cooper. It makes me feel warm inside. 

Sue Baran: Yeah, same problem, so. But it's Mr.

Cooper. 

Jason Kleiger: Yeah. Wow. So yeah, so, it's, uh, And, and, you know, that's why, for example, um, you know, FRPTA payments are, you know, when it's a foreign national selling property, uh, you know, they, they have to pay 15 percent of the sales price. Okay? I'm not going to get too deep into that. But sometimes it's, you know, a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

And um, I always demand that it's a, um, an escrow check and an attorney IOLA check because if it ever gets lost, you can simply cancel it and reissue a new one. That's the bad thing about bank checks. You send a bank check to the government, okay, you're sending a bank check to the government And what happens 90 days later, you have to wait for it to clear the funds and back into the account and then reissue another check.

So I completely understand. And you know, any bank and correct me if I'm wrong, because [00:55:00] you've been doing this a lot. You've been doing this longer than me. I'm gonna say a lot, but now I just did. But, um, Now you get payoffs you go and it's a local bank that has a local branch you go straight to that branch Is that right?

Cuz I know no you that's even worse. 

Sue Baran: Yeah, you do not do that You have to go to whatever it says on the payoff letter. You go to a local branch. You could just kiss it Goodbye, you know

Yeah, no, it's like Wells Fargo. 

Jason Marcus: Don't throw Joe under the bus. That's just Mr. Cooper. Mr. Cooper is 

Sue Baran: the one I sweat. Alright, you 

Bisendra Melaram: guys have any other questions? I know you don't have any questions. Well, very quickly, 

Sue Baran: I'll just bring up Biden's little drop.

He fell again? No, no, no. He talked about doing, instead of title insurance for, you know, lenders, for a lender's policy, doing a title insurance waiver and just paying like, [00:56:00] just a small fee. Trying to help borrowers out. A waiver? Like deleting, deleting getting lender's insurance. In other words, you don't need a title company.

Instead, it'll be some sort of endorsement that you'll pay instead. 

Speaker 2: An endorsement 

Bisendra Melaram: to who? 

Sue Baran: Uh. To the lender 

Jason Kleiger: who's providing 

Bisendra Melaram: the endorse to the lender endorsement. Yeah. Who's endorsing it? 

Jason Marcus: Yeah. What lender 

Sue Baran: has the title? It's a, no, no, it doesn't even come from us. It's, it's, it's a title endorsement from the government.

Jason Kleiger: Oh, great. Sorry. . And 

Sue Baran: then, uh, Fannie Mae said, well, if that's gonna be the case, no. Then we gonna have, we're gonna have to charge. another fee for that because if there's a problem we need to be protected 

Jason Kleiger: and gee, what do you know? 

Bisendra Melaram: Oh 

Jason Kleiger: wait 

Bisendra Melaram: Hey, so we

Sue Baran: Got my own 

Bisendra Melaram: problems

Sue Baran: Scratched the surface. So I mean it was just kind of like I'm starting 

Bisendra Melaram: to see a pattern 

Jason Marcus: Yeah This thing that wouldn't go anywhere just cuz Fannie Fannie and Freddie [00:57:00] aren't gonna like sit there and their government run Agencies anyway like inevitably like they'll just sit there and laugh at any sort of idea and plus obviously at that point time Congress has to It's gonna 

Bisendra Melaram: be it's gonna look so funny.

Oh wait, I got to endorse my own Lending of my own money. Sure. Let me let me just sign off on anything Right, you won't you won't wait, but it's my money. It's not going anywhere. I'll let's do so I'll just take it back. 

Jason Kleiger: Let them figure out intercom intercompany indemnification. Let them figure that out. I 

Bisendra Melaram: can't even say it 

Jason Kleiger: That's a good one, right?

You like that 

Sue Baran: Little bit of alliteration there. 

Jason Marcus: Yeah. Yeah, they love they love coming up with ideas without talking to us about it Oh my god, can you guys call us so that way we can tell you? Yeah ridiculous Seriously, 

Bisendra Melaram: don't forget that everyone's contact information is in the show description 

Jason Marcus: So you guys in the government can call us and ask us how to actually create rules that make sense for the consumer 

Bisendra Melaram: I may have to charge you and [00:58:00] There will be a fee and we will endorse it ourselves.

George Santos, don't call us. Yeah, nah, no, no, no. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You guys have any Okay, we're getting really bad with the jokes. The Santos thing took me sideways. 

Sue Baran: Edit, edit, edit. 

Bisendra Melaram: No, yeah, it's fine. We did this is normal for us. 

Jason Marcus: I like when Jay turns red. Yeah. That means everything's going very well.

And then I get the bald head 

Jason Kleiger: turning red too. Oh, no. No, no, no, no. It doesn't show up on camera, does it?

Jason Marcus: I just can't wait for future podcasts where I can rant more. Oh, it's coming, 

Bisendra Melaram: it's coming, it's coming. 

Jason Marcus: I can't wait. 

Bisendra Melaram: So Sue, give us some practical advice for ensuring a smooth transaction or what someone would look for in a title company if they were looking for themselves. 

Sue Baran: To purchase a 

Bisendra Melaram: title.

Right. So, you know, there's some states and some municipalities where Attorney is not needed. So a lot of transactions are done strictly with title. So can you offer them some Advice as to what to look for, you [00:59:00] know, red flags to you know, avoid and stuff like that 

Sue Baran: Well, it's so so it depends on where you are.

And this is I'm sure this is this podcast goes To all the states. So you have like all the states Canada. So that's six people in the UK but You know in California these depends on where you are in California, but the seller pays for the title insurance They split the title insurance 

Jason Kleiger: As close as Jersey really?

Yeah. 

Sue Baran: Yeah, so it's really it's it's interesting. So it just it just depends but Since I'm a New York agent, I will talk strictly for New York, and, um, I, and I, and as much as I would love to say, uh, go out there on your own and purchase title insurance policy, the real thing to do is to get a really good real estate attorney.

And that real estate attorney will have a relationship, if they're really good, with a really good, um, Title insurance agent or [01:00:00] or direct because you can certainly go direct to the underwriter Either way, you're not paying a difference in fees you get. Yeah, I think you get more personal service with an agency You know, I started out it was just me and one other person That I had working for me and then I blew it up to 24 people Working for me Pre pandemic and then by the time the pandemic had hit it, you know, jumped to like 40 people.

Wow. Yeah. So, uh, I pride my company on really being extremely service oriented. We answer emails probably within five minutes of the email going out where somebody's on. That's pretty good. Yeah, we're, we're, we're all excellent. I would say that my staff is phenomenal. Phenomenal, they are all Learned they've been in the business every one of them That's 

Bisendra Melaram: awesome.

Yeah 

Jason Kleiger: And I've worked with [01:01:00] Sue before on numerous occasions and you get that small Feel that you know people are there that you can just pick up the phone and get that person and you get that personal touch But they have the capability of, you know, a far reaching, you know, technologically savvy and, and being able to really, you know, get everything, uh, make sure everything is airtight.

Um, so they, they have the resources of a, a large agency, but at the same time you get that personal touch, which is always something that I look for. And when you're doing 

Sue Baran: it so long, you've come across almost everything. 

Bisendra Melaram: Well, that experience counts, right? Oh, yeah. So, 

Sue Baran: definitely. 

Bisendra Melaram: Awesome. So, as we wrap up today's episode, a big thank you to Sue Barron for sharing her expertise on title insurance.

Amazing. 

Sue Baran: for having me. 

Bisendra Melaram: as always, we'll have Sue's contact information in the show description if you want to reach out. And remember, knowledge is key in real estate, and we're here to provide you with [01:02:00] insights you need. So tune in next time for more valuable discussions on keys to the castle.

Until next time, this is Bisendra Melaram, along Jason Kleiger, Jason Marcus, and the entire castle team signing off, wishing you all the success and prosperity in your real estate endeavors. Goodbye for now.